The Demise...

[tjs]

Sorry, I've just noticed that there are in fact two Forums for 'General Discussion'...so if I'm on the wrong one, my apologies (but I feel this is important info to get out there)... tjs

Guys,

Just in case you don't know...

http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifean18

This is going to catch a LOT of people out!!!ÂÃ, 

Cheers.

tjs.

[Zen]

I skipped 98 a long long time ago. So no wories there for me.

Lewis

[Mike Stefanik]

Ha! I won by just over an hour! Do I get a cookie?

http://www.ionicwind.com/forums/index.php?topic=530.0

[LarryMc]

If MS doesn't support 98 with fixes anymore that means they can layoff 1000s of people because 98 needed some fixin' from day one.
Larry

[Mike Stefanik]

It was originally supposed to reach the end-of-life in January, 2004 but Microsoft extended it after a lot of folks started howling about how they didn't know that it was going to be phased out (nevermind the fact that Microsoft had discussed it on their website). I'm sure a lot of Microsoft PSS folks were irritated as hell when it was announced that Windows 98 would live for another 18 months or so.

Windows 98 had some nice features back in the day (large disk support, USB support, etc.) and was much more stable than Windows 95 was. However, its time has come and gone and now it should go to the operating system bit-bucket in the sky. On the other hand, as a friend of mine said, they should have set the end-of-life for Windows Me a week after it was released. That thing was an abomination.

[Ionic Wind Support Team]

98 SE was probably the best 9x based system to have come out of Redmond.  All it needs is current security and driver updates and it would continue to be a viable system. 

It might be phased out but I'll hang on to my Win 98 SE CD for a long time to come. 

[GWS]

I've never received any support from Microsoft - what you've never had you don't miss.

Nor have I had the slightest problem with 98SE over the many years I've used it.ÂÃ,  Like other MS offerings, the things that will finally stop you using it are lack of 98 drivers with newer components, or software not being written for it anymore because the 'with-it' people have moved on to the latest gimmick OS.

I'd probably still be using Win3.1 if it's development had continued to cope with graphics and sound technologies.ÂÃ,  It was so small and unintrusive you wouldn't notice it on your hard drive (unlike XP which takes over your machine)

I have two 98 CD's to keep me running as long as my hardware holds up - at least another 10 years I'd guess.ÂÃ,  I shall keep on enjoying all the software I've gathered that runs on 98 for as long as possible.ÂÃ,  Greedy, useless MS won't stampede me into paying them a bent cent.

best wishes,

Graham

[tjs]

Guys,

For what it's worth, apart from screen shots of our products (because, frankly, XP 'styles' or is that 'themes' are eye candy), I run XP in 'Classic' mode...guess old habits die hard.ÂÃ, 

I think those of us already on XP will agree however that it is MUCH more stable than 9.x (whatever the B Gates bashers might say).

Also, if you have a P4 with HT (Hyper Threading) technology, XP supports this (i.e. it regards your system as having two CPU's - albeit 'pseudo')...this is something 9.x could never, and of course, will now never achieve.

Times move on...MS-DOS is no more, and any time soon, 98x will be no more (and of course, in the fullness of time, XP will be consigned to the M$ bit bucket)...I'm not saying it's right, but it IS the way things are.

Cheers all.

tjs.

[tjs]

Ha! I won by just over an hour! Do I get a cookie?

http://www.ionicwind.com/forums/index.php?topic=530.0

Sorry Mike... I did not spot your postÂÃ, 

Terry aka tjs.

[Rock Ridge Farm (Larry)]

Micro WHO? What version of Linux is that?

[Mike Stefanik]

Micro WHO? What version of Linux is that?

Just Windows. You know, that little operating system that runs >90% of the world's computers and >95% of the desktop systems that actually runs real software?ÂÃ, 

Oh, by the way, a fresh install of Windows XP takes up about %0.8 of my total disk space. Complaining about the size of any application is so very 1980s. This is why we invented 250GB+ drives.

As for Microsoft "stampeding" people into upgrades, actually they've done the opposite. But then again, I presume that Graham is still using an icebox to store his food, listening to analog radio (no television, since that's just an expensive upgrade!), playing 8-track tapes (CDs are just a consipiracy to force you to buy your music all over again!) and riding a horse to work ... after all, no one is going to stampede him into using one of those damn newfangled automobile things, are they!?

[Ionic Wind Support Team]

I run XP in classic mode on my development machine.  Only switching to Fisher Price blue when making screen shots or testing code.

XP is more stable and can be run for a longer period of time between reboots, but it isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination.  NTFS suffers from very bad fragmentation issues, memory fragmentation is also a big problem.  These are things I hope they address in Windows 2007 (Vista).

I keep my 98 SE setup disk because I have older hardware still in use.  My daughters laptop can't run XP and only has an 8GB drive.  I have a box I use only for hardware testing and linux distros.  It dual boots with 98 so I can test Aurora with 9x systems and older hardware.  K62-450 with 64MB of ram and 6.4GB drive;)  XP wouldn't even install on it.

In my town the school system is on a very tight budget.  Their computer lab still has 50% aging hardware running 9x based systems.  I can see a tax increase coming when 98 support is dropped by MS.  So yes that is stampeding people into upgrading, at a cost that is born by taxpayers.

Like many families I can't afford to buy the kids new hardware everytime an OS is abandoned.  My son saves up for newer video cards with each incarnation of DirectX since the games he gets for Christmas never run on his current setup. 

without security fixes and updates for 98 I will have to buy my daughter a new laptop this year. Have to find a used one somewhere that can run XP at least.

Newer isn't always better. 

Paul.

[Mike Stefanik]

On the other hand, we are talking about an operating system that is 8 years old now. Back in 1998, that would have been like complaining that one was "forced" to upgrade to Windows 98 because Microsoft no longer supported Windows 3.0 (which was released in 1990).

And I still take issue that Microsoft has "stampeded" anyone. They had made it clear to developers and administrators for years -- yes, literally years -- that Windows 98 was approaching its end-of-life. Anyone who is responsible for those systems in your school district (or anywhere else) should have known that this was happening as early as 2003. Now, if they chose to do nothing for three years, how can that possibly be the fault of Microsoft? It's like warning someone that their house is termite infested and in danger of collapse... and when they ignore that warning and the house collapses 3 years later, they want to blame the building inspector.

In terms of education, I understand that school districts struggle with budgets, but how much a favor are you doing kids by strapping them with antiquated hardware and outdated operating systems? If you went for a job interview and they asked you what kind of programming experience you had and you told them that you wrote assembly for the PDP-11, that's not going to score you high marks. Employers want folks with experience with current technology, not stuff that's almost a decade old. So the school might be saving themselves some money on the short term, but they're hurting their students in the long term. We're a technology-driven society. If you don't stay on the train, you get thrown off it.

[tjs]

Whilst I entirely agree with much that has been said here...I guess the bottom line is, if you have to stay with 98x (for whatever reason), you will be well advised to STAY OFF the Internet!!

Just my 2 cent's worth.

tjs.

[Ionic Wind Support Team]

Our school district isn't large enough to have the same budget as a big city.  You can't fault them for that, there just isn't the population here to support it. 

but how much a favor are you doing kids by strapping them with antiquated hardware and outdated operating systems?
.....
We're a technology-driven society. If you don't stay on the train, you get thrown off it.

We live in the real world, not the one that Microsoft has on paper.  Most of the families here struggle with below poverty income and buying a $299 OS for their PC, and the hardware to support it,  isn't top on the list.  Feeding the family takes priority followed by all of the other necessities of life.  We feel lucky enough to just have the PC's in the classroom.  And it is the same for the majority of the smaller school systems in my area. 

On the other hand, we are talking about an operating system that is 8 years old now.

So?  Again newer isn't necessarily better.  One of the primary reasons that Linux has the appeal it does is the support of all systems from old to new.  While it fails to deliver on the ease of use for the average joe, it does exactly what it is supposed to.  Not that it is storming the world of course.

It's like warning someone that their house is termite infested and in danger of collapse... and when they ignore that warning and the house collapses 3 years later, they want to blame the building inspector.

Not quite the same there.  It is not a matter of ignoring in the case of our school, it is a matter of capital.  I would rather see the budget be spent exactly like it has been.  Sports, Music, Arts, and other real world assets.  Computer based careers have been on the decline for a decade now and I wouldn't push any of my kids in that direction.  In fact I recommend against it.  Sure all kids should have basic computer skills such as Word and Excel just because most workplaces use it.  But the money is no longer in IT, at least not in the US. 

My oldest daughter finished her Bachelors in social work and makes 65K a year.  My friends son just finished school to become a Pharmacist and has been offered 100K + a new car by one company.  IT can't compete with numbers like that.  Not at entry level at least.

So in the end did it really matter that her school ran Windows 98 on most of their machines when she was in High School?  Not in the least.  The other lab had iMac's that were donated.  Again it didn't matter to her career. 

At college level I agree that the latest and greatest is a must have.  That is where it does matter if your targeting an IT career.

[Steven Picard]

Paul,

I agree with you entirely and really can't add anymore to what you've stated.  The small school my children go to are in the same postiion, and, as far as careers go, my children are still a little young to make that decision but I want them to at least understand computer usage (like you said, word processing and excel.)  If they understand those two applications they can easily adopt to others as needed.

[GWS]

Mike, you're priceless .. Bill Gates must love you ..

Of course Windows is better than DOS, but Win 3.1 gave us GUI, Truetype fonts, multitasking, sound, SVGA graphics, printing, and with Netscape - internet access.  It hasn't advanced much except for frills.

Win98 has run dozens of my favorite software packages for years, with no problems at all - so why update it.

I get by with an 80Gb disk, and that's half empty.  Large disks don't justify bloat.  I've tried XP and removed it immediately - too intrusive.

How did you guess my favorite radio is analog .. I listen to the World on it all the time. (see attachment).  It's 45 years old, built by the Eddystone Radio Company, it uses valves .. and I wouldn't part with it for anything.

You seem to have been brainwashed into thinking digital is best.  Think about it .. a pure tone (sine wave) is digitised (ie chopped up into discrete levels), transmitted, and re-assembled to drive your speakers.  It sounds OK of course, but it isn't the pure tone that started out.   That's why hi-fi buffs still prefer valve amplifiers, and some think vinyl records give the best music dynamics .. 

On TV, only a few years ago, you could get a good analogue TV set for about $500 - now all you can find in the shops are digital sets costing over $2000.  Are they 'better' - I wouldn't say so.  I needed to buy a $500 antenna just to stop the picture breaking up in the low signal strength area where I live.
My other 10 year old analogue satellite system gives a much clearer and better color picture than the digital one.

8 track tapes - Oh .. I'd forgotten those.    Can't get them now, but they did provide the best in-car music I've heard.  CD's have to be fitted in floating suspension units, so I don't bother with them.

I started transferring my vinyl collection to Sony mini-disks, but it looks like that technology has been passed over (another load of expensive techno-scrap), so I'll be hanging on to my records.  Many are over 30 years old, and are still good to listen to. Probably still be around in another 30 years.

Don't knock the horse - when you guys have finished guzzling all the oil, you might need to get one yourself .. 

I do have a poor excuse for an automobile - a Ford Focus.  It's OK, costly to run, and the traffic over here means it's no fun to drive.  Nobody makes a proper car anymore, with a chassis, rear-wheel drive, and a longitudinal engine you can actually work on.

I also run a motorcycle that's a 40 year old design Royal Enfield (see attachment). It does 80mph at 80 mpg, it's all metal, and is very comfortable.  Runs like a sewing machine at about 2500rpm.

Nope, I'm quite happy with my old stuff, and not at all tempted by modern gimmicks.  New doesn't necessarily mean better ..

best wishes, 

Graham

[Parker]

My district still has the same computers that were new in 97/98, using Novell for logins, and they really have no problems for in school use. AP Computer science (Java & C++) have more advanced computers, but really 98 is still very suitable for an average user.

I personally prefer Win2k above others. It's very stable without all the frills of XP.

[Mike Stefanik]

Heh, I'd make some comments about Win98 and .NET but that's probably just gonna dig my hole deeper here.

In any case, the critical issue is really that Win98 and WinMe are inherently insecure platforms. They supported Internet access of course, but they were really designed to function as standalone desktop platforms, much like their 16-bit predecessors. They have a no security subsystem and an open door to anyone who's directly connected to the Internet and is not behind a hardware firewall. It's a hazard, not only to the person using it, but also to the rest of us because those are precisely the kinds of systems that the script kiddies love to use to launch DDoS attacks.

[Parker]

There are various opinions about .NET, and it seems some like to talk bad about it just because it's from MS. It sure gets more bashing than java does... but whatever you think, MS the computing giant is backing it so I really don't think it's going to go away, in fact I think much of the future of computers is going to be based on .NET. And look at Singularity (MS Research), it's pretty interesting.

[Ionic Wind Support Team]

XP is just as vulnerable to spyware as 98.  Can't begin to count how many hours I have spent removing spyware from XP systems.  Probably in the thousands.

A properly configured and secure 98 system runs fine on the net.  IE is the biggest security flaw on all of the systems, which is why I refuse to use it live. 

I still have one 98 system that is connected to the net.  It is behind a hardware firewall, runs Mozilla, and to this day has never had a single virus or spyware app on it.

Security starts with the user and ends with the OS.  Most DDoS trojans started life as email attachments, opened by naive users that figured it is safe to open attachments.  And yes it may be easier for such a trojan to infect a 9x system, granted.  But it was a user issue, not an OS one.

XP is more secure in a multi user environment, which doesn't apply to home users.  But don't get me wrong as I enjoy the stability of XP.  I just don't agree that 98 has reached it's end of life yet.

Paul.

[tjs]

XP is just as vulnerable to spyware as 98.ÂÃ,  Can't begin to count how many hours I have spent removing spyware from XP systems.ÂÃ,  Probably in the thousands.

A properly configured and secure 98 system runs fine on the net.ÂÃ,  IE is the biggest security flaw on all of the systems, which is why I refuse to use it live.ÂÃ, 

I still have one 98 system that is connected to the net.ÂÃ,  It is behind a hardware firewall, runs Mozilla, and to this day has never had a single virus or spyware app on it.

Security starts with the user and ends with the OS.ÂÃ,  Most DDoS trojans started life as email attachments, opened by naÃÆ'Ã,¯ve users that figured it is safe to open attachments.ÂÃ,  And yes it may be easier for such a trojan to infect a 9x system, granted.ÂÃ,  But it was a user issue, not an OS one.

XP is more secure in a multi user environment, which doesn't apply to home users.ÂÃ,  But don't get me wrong as I enjoy the stability of XP.ÂÃ,  I just don't agree that 98 has reached it's end of life yet.

Paul.

I quite agree with you Paul...

I have also pointed out elsewhere, that (using my web logs), 98 is still the most popular O/S in use with my 'user base'...

However, my fear is from July 12th and on, every possible 'exploit' will be found and used against 98.x and of course, these will NEVER be patched...hope that doesn't sound too alarmist.

We intend to keep supporting 98/Me for as long as is feasibleÂÃ, 

Cheers.

Terry.

[Mike Stefanik]

I have also pointed out elsewhere, that (using my web logs), 98 is still the most popular O/S in use with my 'user base'...

Really? Out of curiosity, I just checked our webserver access log. Out of 1,300,368 hits, just 26,143 of them were from Windows 98 systems (about 2%). The majority (65%) were using Windows XP and the next largest group was Windows 2000 (10%). Interestingly, about 300K of those 1.3M hits weren't users; mostly spiders, I'm guessing. If you factor those out, that pushes XP up to about 83% and Windows 2000 about 14%.

[Ionic Wind Support Team]

Depends on the site and offerings of course.

65% sounds about right though, five years into XP.  And even if it was only 22% using 9x that still is a large enough user base to support for profit.

Paul.

[LarryMc]

GWS
Haven't seen a Royal Enfield since the early 60's.  I preferred the old Triumph's and sharp looking Mustangs(motorcycle, not car).

Larry